We meet at the Short Waves Film Festival in Poland. You travelled from Glasgow, where you co-direct an important film festival that is likewise focused on short films.
Yes, I am from Belgium, but I live in Glasgow, Scotland, and have been there for over ten years. I started working for Glasgow Short Film Festival at the end of 2014.
Why are short films so fascinating to you?
It was not a conscious decision in the beginning. I studied European cinema, and I started volunteering for GSFF years ago. That was my real introduction to short film as its own art form. Then, a few years later, I started working for them on a paid basis. Even though I was really interested in it, I don’t think it was a route that I very consciously chose, because most of my knowledge at the time was still more in art house feature cinema. I also came from a fine arts background and I started to understand the bridge between short film and other visual arts and see it as its own art form, which I don’t think a lot of people do when they’re first introduced to it. That is when I started to realise that it was actually more interesting to me than feature cinema, because there’s a lot more experimentation involved. The stakes are lower because the budgets are lower. That gives it a freedom and playfulness that I am more attracted to. It also means, generally, the people involved are quite nice (laughs). The more I got into it, the more it fit my values and interests.
What are the similarities and differences between the Glasgow Short Film Festival and the Short Waves Festival?
Me and Emilia (Mazik), who’s the festival director here, have spoken about that in the past. Our festivals used to be quite similar in size, and I think our programming sensibilities have a good bit of overlap. There are quite a lot of commonalities there. I think we have similar social and political values and it comes through. There are similar audiences attending both festivals and the kind of discourse that is framed within our programming is not that different either. I think they are both quite accessible and friendly festivals. They don’t feel too institutional. So, I think there are quite a lot of those similarities, but since I got to know Short Waves, it has definitely grown a lot. I think GSFF is still a lot smaller. So, it has been interesting to see it develop and to see what they are doing each year. It has been very inspiring for me to look at.
Short films are still marginalised somehow because people want to watch long feature films. Do you think that something has changed since you began your adventure with that form?
You mean in terms of it coming out of the margins? It’s become a bit more accessible for people to start with film. The technology is cheaper. I suppose in that way, there’s a difference. Also, I think in the way that we now consume media there is a difference. There are media platforms now that are taking on and publishing short films. In that way, I think it has come out of the margins. I do not necessarily think it has come out of the margins in terms of a more mainstream acceptance because it sits in relation to a commercial outlook on cinema. But yes, I think there are things that have happened that hopefully we can use to develop further interest.
But can you imagine somebody being a respected film maker and having enough money to live while creating only short films during his or her whole life?
It’s quite rare. I’m sure there are some artists that do that, but I do not think it is a very common thing. I suppose I even know a few people that do make a living that way, but they do not make money only from their short films. They might also do some commercial work or they might do additional editing for other projects, that kind of thing. I don’t think, as a film maker, you necessarily need to be making features to make a living off of film. But I think it’s quite rare to see someone living off short films.
Which is a shame, because I believe there are some creators who really feel the short form and do not do as well in longer forms.
But I think it also has to do with funding infrastructures and wherever artists are working. Because, obviously, one aspect of that discussion is how we pay for showing short films and how we fund it. Screening fees for short films are still rare or low, and I know a lot of film makers that have a lot of issues with that. But then I also know that some film makers, because of the context they work in, can get a decent amount of funding to produce short films. For them, it’s like, “well, I’ve got funding for these two years and my salary is wrapped up in it.” The screen fees after it is finished are not really part of what they see as sustaining themselves. So, I think there are different opinions there as well.
You are a member of the jury of the Polish Experimental Films competition during the Short Waves this year. Can you tell me what you already know about Polish cinema?
Very little, probably more about the animation. I have always noticed that there’s a lot of really interesting animation coming out of Poland at the festival in Glasgow. We always get some of the film schools here submitting and there seems to be quite a tradition of strong, interesting, innovative animation here. But in terms of fiction, documentary, or a kind of more experimental tradition, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. So, it is quite interesting. One of my jury co-members, Anna Konik, is in fact an experimental Polish film maker herself. She has a better view on that. But the other person, artist Yuyan Wang, came sort of from my perspective. We were both ready to be surprised.
Do those perspectives sometimes collide? How was it working in the jury?
We got on very well. We noticed quite early on that we all had the same things that stood out to us. All the films in the competition have something that’s quite interesting, either in terms of their production or formally. But it is fascinating that all three of us, even though we have very different backgrounds, were looking for the same types of formal experimentation. So, luckily, we reached our conclusion quite quickly. It was interesting because the things that we leaned towards had a lot to do with hybridity, discipline, and execution. I actually quite like it when things do not entirely succeed in what they are doing, but they are interesting. In this case however, there were a few things that stood out to us as just being very cohesive and rigid in their approach.
You have seen three hours of very different Polish experimental films. Some of them are video-art pieces, some of them are made out of found footage. There are weird experiments with the film medium and more conventional music videos. Some of those films are made by very young film makers, a few are made by very well-known, experienced artists. Most film makers in the competition have an artistic background, so somehow, they are close to your own path. What can you say about these films in general?
You could see similarities in some things, but I think it was quite an eclectic mix, which I think we really liked. It was a lot more varied than I had expected. When you are on the jury of national competitions, it can be quite a tricky thing, because the pool is small. So, when it is specifically a national experimental competition, it’s like you do not really know what you are getting into. It was really interesting to see how diverse it was. And yeah, like you’re saying, you can really see different traditions in it. We also talked a lot with the curators about what they think makes each film experimental. Not knowing much about the local scene was quite good for us; it really helped the process. It was only afterwards that I got to know that some of those films were made by well-established Polish artists. I really enjoyed some of the titles. I was saying to the jury that there were a few films in here that I could imagine the preselection team at my own festival really enjoying, that I could see them fitting within our competition. That is actually what you are hoping for from these national competitions. You are discovering things that are not easily going to come to you otherwise. So that was very encouraging.
Since this is a national competition, did you find anything in common with all those films? Can you feel they are coming from the same country?
There are certain films that I see similarities in, but I don’t think there is a commonality that runs through them. It might have to do with not knowing local traditions or certain cultural contexts. There are a few films in there that clearly have political context to them that I do not always understand, but I’m trying to, and it just makes the whole thing even more interesting.
How do you perceive films? How do you balance between the form of the film and the topic that it is about?
By the time you publish this, everything about our verdict will be known anyway, but I can tell you that the winning films bridge those things. I think that is also why we were drawn to them. All three of us on the jury were actually interested in documenting. Even if it’s an experimental or creative documentary approach, I suppose we look for some kind of political or social urgency. To see work that is formally quite interesting but also has that sort of approach lifts it above the ones that maybe have one or the other. I have never really been that interested in art for art’s sake. I think if it does not have some level of socio-political dimension to it, I can appreciate it, but I’m never going to be very excited about it.
Some people say that experimental cinema today is like a relic from the past. That it is just repeating the avant-garde techniques all over again. That there is nothing new and truly experimental about it. What do you say?
We had a whole panel about this last week. The starting point was essentially about how contentious that term is, because either people will link it to film history and certain traditions, or you try and define what it means now, which is almost impossible. It is actually a strange thing to ask, particularly in short film, because I think you only ask that question when your starting point is the idea that film is commercial entertainment. Look at how diverse short film production is, especially among festival films. When I talk about our programming in Glasgow, I say: “We show fiction, documentary, animation, experimental and artists’ moving image next to each other.” And when you say that so often, you get used to it. But in fact, I don’t really know what it means, because, for example, a lot of films in the documentary section most people will consider experimental. I might not, because I’m quite familiar with this kind of style. It also depends on the local context, and what your audiences are familiar with, what your education was, and what your schools are doing. But I know that in the UK, our festival, as a short contest, is seen as slightly more experimental compared to some of the other short festivals. But then when you put us next to actual experimental festivals, we will be seen as quite tame in a lot of ways. So, it is hard, and I think it entirely depends on where your position is within the local context.
The other problem might be that, because the line between what is considered non-experimental and experimental is very thin, some people don’t want to be trapped in a sort of experimental “ghetto”.
Yes, this is the thing. I think there’s a lot of work to be done in how you educate and familiarise audiences. I think, particularly in the UK, there’s a lot of alternative screen culture that has been left to erode in a lot of ways. It is quite hard to work on that, because that has to do with funding priorities and, again, educational priorities, all these things. So, it is tricky to do that. You obviously need to work in order to get your audience on board, but I also do not want to patronise audiences and be afraid that if you call something experimental, they might just not like it. A lot of work that I might consider fairly experimental, if you put it in the right context and you present it in the right way, might actually go down very well. But if you just brand it experimental cinema, a lot of people are going to be like, “Oh, we don’t really know what to do with this.” It is all about us thinking a bit more radically about how we structure and how we present things.
You say that today’s media, streaming platforms, for example, might be very helpful in promoting short films. But on the other hand, are you not afraid that streaming services are too mainstream in what they like, so showing short non-mainstream films to a wider audience might eventually become even harder?
Absolutely that can happen. Those services may help in some ways, but they may be damaging as well. It is complicated. I might look at shorts titles on Mubi and think that they are too obvious for me. But Mubi is really the only big art house streaming platform, so for people to even engage with a lot of the stuff that’s on there is something you cannot really underestimate in terms of what it means for the development of less-mainstream cinema. There are also a lot of short films on there that could potentially get many eyes on them that otherwise would not. Yet, I am also a little bit concerned about what those platforms do to the economy of film making, since often they do not pay these small titles very well. There are also quite a lot of interesting, really small streaming platforms that have very low subscription fees, that are very well curated and show really interesting work. But I reckon that people who end up there are those who are already familiar with this stuff. I even notice it in what I watch, both with film and with music and anything else, that I do not seek things out in the same way that I used to, because the moment I get stuck in one of these algorithms, I’m just kind of “right, okay, let’s go”. So, streaming is not enough and can be damaging in many ways. That is why I think festivals are still very relevant. Unfortunately, it’s quite concerning to me that funding priorities are shifting in the wrong direction because everything is becoming so monocultural today. Festivals are trying to break this monoculture and somehow show different stuff.
Are the festivals coming back after the pandemic? And do you think they still have this power to attract audiences, especially young audiences, to a different kind of cinema? What about the art galleries? Maybe they are the best places to show short experimental cinema nowadays.
I think galleries and cinemas can coexist, and they should coexist. There are a lot of film festivals that are focused on works made by artists. They really engage with the visual arts world and they look at it to find works that could then be put in a different context and for new audiences. That cross-pollination is really important for the medium. But in the art world, you often notice a lot of resistance because they operate in a slightly different economy and those works should be exhibited differently. Those two worlds should be working together quite organically, but it seems like from one end there is potentially more resistance or a lack of knowledge about what the other can do.
I think festivals are coming back, but I do worry about a lot of things that are not necessarily pandemic specific. Streaming platforms, all sorts of capitalist acceleration, funding shifting in what is going to be a fairly long, unstable economic period. Those things worry me because they will have their impact on festivals and screen culture more broadly over the next decade or two. During the pandemic, you saw some of these big festivals trying to respond to what was going on by doing joint online festivals that are available worldwide. I understand it because you’re trying to find a solution for the situation, but it monopolises the market in a way. There’s very little consideration of the wider ecosystem of smaller, more locally focused festivals, and that worries me.
The good side is that we’ve all either gone hybrid or had full online editions. I think the kind of infrastructure that we created because of that has been beneficial. It almost feels silly that we weren’t already using these technologies before. We have reached people in places that would have otherwise never been able to see this work, and all of a sudden it creates an opportunity to even think about other things you could be doing in terms of having an accessible archive or an industry resource online that gives access to work that otherwise would have maybe one showing somewhere and then never see the light of day again. I was really happy to see feedback from people who would have otherwise never engaged with us. Obviously, I think at the moment, I don’t assume we’re going to step away from doing those online elements because they have become integrated from an access point of view. It seems to be quite logical to keep some element of that going. And within the festivals, like Short Waves, Glasgow and all that circuit, we have always collaborated, we have always had sort of similar values and aims, but now it also makes you realise how you can actually work together without having to be in the same spaces. We did share industry panels, for example. We could have always done this and we never did. But now that it’s there, it seems to be continuing.
Polish Experimental Film Competition Winners – Short Waves 2022
Jury members: Anna Konik, Sanne Jehoul, Yuyan Wang.
● Main Award
Ziemia wchłonie to wszystko / Dominik Ritszel / Poland / 2021 / Experimental / 9’
This film stood out for its distinct formal and visual approach while reflecting on the instability of historical and contemporary contexts, and the uncertainty of their representation. Combining striking abstract graphical elements with archival footage, alongside impactful sound design, it is both eclectic and cohesive. While bold in its form, it holds a strong emotional core, speaking to the complexity of our past, present and future through working class communities’ solidarity and struggle against a backdrop of socio-economic and environmental concerns.
● Honourable Mention – 1 500 PLN
To my friends. Next room (Hotel Monterey) / Jan Domicz / Poland / 2021 / Experimental / 9’
A film that unfolds poetically yet forensically through refined images of layered spaces, referencing cinema itself while considering the political dimensions of architecture and the potential of its occupation and transformation as a critical tool for understanding our communities and the world around us.
